0:00 Welcome back to our episode number three with Charles from North Korea. Uh in the section of the story we're in, he's currently living in China. But Bart had a really funny question where he wanted to know what American city is the closest to living in North Korea. >> Well, cuz he was saying that like whatever you think it is, it's 20, 30, 100 times worse. So I've never been to North Korea, so I was trying to like relate like what would be the closest city in America to North Korea. Have you been to Barstow? Is it like that? >> I mean like Barstow is like the middle of nowhere. I mean I have to drive through, you know, from California. >> Dude, Barstow is a nice place. What are you talking about? >> I think you see in between Barstow and like the next stop. Just that that dirt area. >> Oh, it's like a middle of nowhere. So nothing. >> Eddie's World. >> No.
0:51 >> The fact there's still a Starbucks there makes it go >> I don't think you can name these these things. >> Um >> don't be like a gas station. No, I I've been to Yeah. I mean, I've been to a lot of places in California. I mean, people say, "Oh, Auckland is very bad in Auckland." A Oakuckland is very very bad place, but Auckland is like >> is still like way better. >> They have street lights there. >> It's already better. >> There's a pave 700 p.m. 8:00 p.m. >> like like paved roads and there's like actually buildings that work. Everyone looks like bad boys. >> Yeah. >> What do you mean? What do you mean? Everyone looks like Will Smith. >> I love it. Um, so like the mean like uh the reason why I say it's like 100 times worse is because the environment that I grew up, right? And the environment that I went
1:42 to school with my friends like I I I was born and raised in this place called Tangin, right? So I'm sure you know you're a Marine, right? And are you still Marine? >> No. >> No. Okay. Thank you for your service. >> Oh, thank you. >> Um, >> it's very nice. Yeah, >> but I didn't serve in the regime though. >> Oh. Oh, what? >> Not an old North Korean regime. I thought I thought you you're working with Okay. >> I was born in uh in Tangzian uh Chosen Reservoir. >> Oh, >> yeah. So, that was my hometown. Um and it was freaking cold like um and there's a lot of Marine have died there. American Marines. And that's the reason why um American Marines now have to go train in Alaska for a little bit in the in the cold >> to acclimate. >> Yeah. To like kind of >> That's how cold it is. >> Oh, it's gets colder. Yeah. Um and then and while growing up like
2:36 I mean like one example is like my mom is getting really sick, right? And she cannot walk. Um, I remember like we had a sledge uh sled. Sled sled uh sled. We use that for transportations a lot. >> The roads are not paved and it's rained. Uh it's snowed. >> Does a sled have wheels or it's just like a rails and you pull on it. >> It's like it's like a rails. Yeah, it's like a it's like a two and I remember like putting um uh it's winter. It's freaking cold, right? So I remember putting like blanket and a pillow and carrying with my half brother. It's like carrying my mom out, putting her on the sledge and pushing her right all the way through the hospital because we did not have any of those transportations, right? And that's kind of like normal like it's just you know like again this
3:27 is not all North Korean people's like experience, right? It's very like few people's like what this would you consider this middle upper or lower? >> Lower like lower of like lower of the lower in a way. Um like when I was younger like it during the winter right there is like shoes that you should wear during the winter like thick shoes thin shoes during the like summer right like I did not have like a thick winter shoes so I still remember wearing trying to like uh wear like many socks and then wearing summer shoes because it was like I couldn't afford it. We couldn't afford it. My mom, I remember um digging through the trash, right, and finding some cloth uh in the trash and she made that she made a um little like um Frankenstein winter jacket because, you know, we didn't have money. We didn't
4:17 have that. And my mom, you know, starved to death. >> Your mom starved to death? >> Yeah, my mom starved to death when when I was 11. Well, she got she got the uh tuberculosis, right? And so she got she had a heart trouble and then she got the tobacculosis at TV. We all have that, right? We all have tuberculosis, but that only comes out when you get malnourished. Uh and then if you if you're not treated well. Um and then you know my while my mom was alive, she told me that she's going to get she feels like she can get up and dance if she were to eat a whole goat. >> Eat a whole goat. >> Goat. Yeah. Cuz like she's so like hungry and she's like craving that. Um, do you guys have stray animals like like stray dogs or a bunch of cats running around or No, >> no. I mean, it's all been eaten. >> Yeah, >> cuz you guys would eat eat eat it
5:08 probably. >> Right. Right. I mean, fish has been like fish like it's been dried out >> like in the river like it's so hard to see any fish. >> Wow. >> Like because it's been like for 40 years it's been like overfished, right? And and that's why I respect like hey if you're a fisher you have to have a license. You have to get approved, right? cuz like you don't over fish >> and they're just gone. Yeah. >> Yeah. So like in North Korea even the rivers like ponds there's no fish because people have just keep doing that. So like compared to like a lot of different North Korean I mean some of the different North Korean defectors that I know even have a like a sadder stories too like uh one of my friends dad had been like beaten to death by a North Korean military uh because he got caught while stealing you know a cow from the military base uh right in front
5:58 of the kid's eye from the base. >> Yeah. Yeah. trying to like stare it out and he got >> Would you say then like if you were in North Korea it might you might have a better life if you try to join the North Korean military. So every North Korean kid, right, had to um serve in the military for for 10. When I was there, it was 10 years. >> 10 years. >> 10 years. Yeah. And it's mandatory, right? >> Everyone has to serve 10 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you go to military when you are basically like 17 and you get out when you're 27. >> Um >> and who would what were the type of people that would want to stay in? um they can't stay in >> but they could again like think about North Korea as like a cast system right so lower class middle class and then upper class and all of those classes has
6:49 its own subclasses right the only way that you can move up through those ranks is through that military right with like getting into North Korean uh workers party right and if you done something extraordinary like uh like uh shooting and killing a North Korean defector for example uh or um uh rescuing a Kiml Song and Kim Jong-'s portrait from a burning house uh and letting your family die, >> right? So So those are kind of like things that could be >> so extreme. Yeah. >> No. Well, I mean those kind those kind of things are like Yeah. We're regularly taught like it's like that's not extreme. That's kind of like, hey, this is like this is how you show your loyal loyalty to the regime, you know, and uh and that's kind of like normal. Like
7:41 >> that's nuts, man. >> We we're always constantly taught, you know, it's like, hey, uh you're you can't say I mean, dear leaders are god basically. Like they're gods, right? We cannot even say their first name. Like that was like the strangest thing ever for me to actually just say Kim Jong-un. Oh, what do you usually say? >> So, is like a a a dear leader, right? That refers to a deer leader refers to Kim Il Song, which is a grandfather of Kim Jong-un. It's like a great leader that refers to Kim Jong- Il's uh Kim Jong-un's dad, >> right? Uh uh and then uh like for a while he was like a supreme leader. Uh now Kim Jong-un he was a supreme leader. >> Supreme leader.
8:31 >> Yeah. So uh you cannot just like say their names because it's such a holy name you know. >> How did how did you so how did you come back from China to have to escape the second time? >> Yeah. I got captured uh and I was forcibly sent back to North Korea. >> How'd they get you? >> You said that your dad wasn't protecting you. You nine months of heaven and then that's where we left off. >> Right. Right. So, uh, my dad, like I thought my dad could just say, "Hey, here's my kid. Don't bring him like don't bring him in or don't deport him back." But, you know, he really couldn't do anything. Um, so the cops came, arrested us. >> How do they know that you didn't belong? >> Um, cuz the the neighbor our neighbor actually reported me to the authorities. I mean, of course, like I don't speak Chinese, right? >> The neighbor reported you? Damn. >> So, you had a white neighbor?
9:22 >> No, Karen. I was living next to Karen, >> the one white person in the city. I can't tell the difference, but I think he's North Korean. >> Yeah. >> Uh, can I speak to your manager? >> Is that very common that they'll just report? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And then because those >> I would also imagine like that area or that city that's like closest to North Korea, they're probably used to it. >> Yeah. And and here's the thing, too. Those not undocumented North Korean defectors, they're cheap labors, right? because they can just like it's like under the cash, you know. Yeah. >> The moment they rebel, like the moment they say I want to raise >> Oh, yeah. >> I was like, get out of here. I'm going to replace you with another screen in defector, you know. So, that was kind of like that's kind of like a normal thing in China. Um, and then yeah, so my uh neighbor reported me to the authorities and then that's how I got caught. And
10:13 then I was sent to North Korean uh defectors uh detention center. Well, first of all, we had like this uh interrogation process for 12 days. Um, I was lucky because I was a child, right? I was 15 years old at the time. So, I was, you know, I wasn't interrogated that harshly, right? But like I could hear people screaming and crying and just screaming, "My leg is broken." They're they're getting beat by like 4x4, >> right? and just like getting like getting beat uh beat. Um and you know I just because the main reason why they're doing that is to figure out did they try to escape to South Korea, right? Cuz like North Korean regime have been telling North Korean people for the past 70 years that no South Korea is poor.
11:04 South Korean people, South Korean kids are on the street selling gums and shining American bastards shoes just to make ends meet. Right now, given that context, if you're trying to defect to South Korea, that means you know something the North Korean regime doesn't want you to know >> and then doesn't want other people to know. Yeah. >> Right. Cuz like if you if you were to be released and again this is one of the misconceptions that people have about like North Korean defectors is that when you get captured and sent back you just die. No no no no no. I I mean North Korean regime I I North Korean regime are people too in a way and they're doing like they're doing things that are told to do. >> You know what I mean? It's like so I would say I'm not defending North Korean
11:55 regime. No, no, no. But I've met like guards that are very kind. >> So you can reason with them too. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you can reason with them like, "Hey, I just went to China cuz I was curious, >> you know, and was like, "Hey, don't do that." >> So at the end of the day, like everyone's still people regardless of the regime or whatever. >> Uh except Kim Jong-un. Yeah. He's a pig. I I I sorry, but lack of better words, he's a pig. >> I don't think you need to say sorry. I think you're you have every right to say that. >> He doesn't know him like I do. So, how long how long were you in the uh detention center? >> Um, so I was captured uh on the uh January of 200 oh sorry uh December of 2008. Um and then I was eventually released uh uh to my half brother's house uh on uh
12:47 September of 2009. So it had been like a >> So you were just in a detention center for nine months? >> Uh no. So uh from we a lot of traveling. So as soon as I got captured I spent some time in an interrogation room. I got beat up. Um and then uh we were moved to the detention center uh where basically were free labor right. So uh they uh so basically this UN kind of like a u labels it as detention center but it's more like a forced labor camp. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So we're forced to do like hard manual labor. What were you guys doing? >> So, we're doing everything like constructions, farming, uh like uh chopping down trees, um and cleaning the public roads, right? Uh >> we call that boy scouts over here, >> you know? I mean, in a way, like the the
13:39 laws that you know, it's like a like doing this like that's like a salute too like Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of things are I found that like there's similarities in that way like the boy scouts like you know North Korean North Korean regime actually no >> worst labor camps in North Korea boy scouts of America that's >> no no no no I mean like I I I don't mean that in that way I I meant like >> uh you know how they have a badge like you collect the badge you get like a you know ties and then you you say >> yeah I think like the boy scout like the thing that you say is like what always ready or be always be prepared. Yeah, in North Korea we always say that's like a be ready not be prepared be ready like that's cool. >> So I realized that was kind of like Yeah. That like working environments, living environments like nowhere close, right? >> No, boys same just outdoors, no
14:30 electricity, a tent. >> All right. Right. >> Right. Sleeping bag maybe. >> Camping. >> I was like yeah when I came came to America it's like oh people do camping for fun. So I was like >> Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that funny? People starve for fun. >> And again, I was like, "Wait, we did intermittent fasting. Like, what is that?" >> So, did they give you enough food while you were in there? >> Uh, that's where I was going to go next. So, um, they fed us, uh, for a time like a a time being, they fed us 150 kernels of corn per day. >> The kernels of corn are counted. >> Yeah, they there is a job for people counting those corns as well. Um and uh the reason is the reason why is because they want us to know that hey if you escape North Korea we're going to cuz you're a traitor first of all second of all you are worth less like worth less
15:21 than a bug right and if we're to feed you you are thinking about escaping North Korea again right so this is like a physical mental and spiritual torture Right? Like when you're starving and you have to work constantly like that way like you're not thinking about escaping North Korea again. Right? And this is not it. This is just a temporary holding place where you're do forced labor. Right? From here um your hometown you have to go to your hometown to be judged. Right. And then go to four years of prison camp. >> Wow. >> Right. So this is not it. So I was lucky in a way only being in there for nine months. I was released to my half brother's house
16:11 because I was a minor. >> Yeah. For 9 months. And I mean I ate like um like live m uh a newborn baby mice in raw, you know, very sweet. >> Just cuz you're hungry, you're >> I was malnourished. There is a way. I'm not sure if you guys knew this, but there is a way you can actually measure your how malnourished you are, right? You stand up and then Oh, no. Dude, you you got a lot of fat. >> I'm fat. I'm sorry. Um >> I'm American. >> You stand up, right? You put your feet together and then you get your fist and just put it in your uh between the thighs. >> Yeah. If it fits, you're malnourished. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> Too much protein in this guy.
17:02 >> Like, like when I was back in back in detention center, my two hands fit. >> What? >> Because I'm just basically skin and bones. And that's the only reason why I was, you know, released earlier was because, well, if you know, you're going to die, >> just die somewhere else. >> Die somewhere else. >> Die in your hometown. a few like I think like a while I was there there was a guy who died like out of like a starvation and and he he went he went out to work we went out to work together he ate plants that he wasn't supposed to eat because he was so hungry >> and he got diarrhea >> uh and you know when you're malnourished and you couldn't stop the diarrhea we uh we went to bed and he never woke up you know and um >> Wow. Uh so we had one of those and then um the the guy um the manager of that
17:55 place realized yeah it's like send these kind of kids home you know so eventually that's why luckily I was able to get out of there um and then after you know coming out of that um you know I I needed to regain my strength uh and I spent many months um like I needed to start with like little things like porridge you know, and eventually work my work my way up to solid food. Um, and then I worked at a coal mine as well. Uh, it was, you know, it was very dangerous. Um, cuz well, a um, uh, uh, caven uh, happens all the time. Very common >> caven like it collapses. >> Collapses. Yeah. So mines collapses uh, and people get c like you know they literally get trapped inside. And >> I remember studying this in American
18:46 history. >> Yeah. And then um um but then you if you sing it sounds beautiful inside >> acoustics are >> acoustics >> travels. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. With your like no singing. >> And uh um I remember um it's it's very quiet, you know, like if you like really get into like a deep deeper like subternals. >> Yeah. >> Um this coal mine was built during the Japanese colonial. >> Wa. And it works, you know, cuz uh it's been like Yeah. It's been like what 19 since like 1945 >> still works. Yeah. And then the rail rail is a little bit older. So it's like uh because of that the car is like it derails and while it's derailing it kind of like crushes people too. >> Uh so that's how people die. So yeah and
19:37 uh rocks falling off everywhere. Um, and I mean after like witnessing people dying, you know, people losing limbs, um, and eventually I was like, you know what, I'm going to be just like that. And like I got to get out of here. Um, I worked there a little bit over a year and then yeah, so I've decided cuz I was in Shun like I was deeper inside of North Korea. Um and you know I was I I knew that you know escaping North Korea would be hard you know without any money or food but I mean dying trying to escape North Korea or dying rather die in the coal mine like escaping North Korea that option was far better. >> So I done it before. Yeah. Like >> yeah I've done it. Yeah I know the route now. Like I'm a I'm a pro. >> I'm a pro.
20:28 >> Please join us for part four. After this, we're going to hear about how Charles escaped for the second
// end of tape