0:00 He's probably going to be way harder on like a hip hop black guy. >> The Hodge Twins? [laughter] >> Yeah, or hip hop black guy. >> Back again with another episode of Careful Boys and we have another very hard topic. Get ready to answer this one, Nick Dunn. You were the first to tell us if you believe that a jury in court >> Yeah. >> should be allowed to judge a plaintiff or defendant of the same race as them. >> No. >> I think they should be able to judge >> Like should they be like oh, the the the guy that's accused of murder is Vietnamese. We we can't have a jury full of Vietnamese people. >> No, not a full jury, no.
0:50 >> Well, who's the victim? Was the victim Vietnamese victim? >> Oh, the victim's white. >> You need a mixed bag, I think. You need a mixed jury bag. >> No, I thought it would be unfair if it's like a white conservative and then everyone is in the jury a white liberal. And then they're just like, he's guilty no matter what. >> Oh, okay. >> You need you want a mixed bag of ideologies. >> political sides are stronger than racial sides. >> so, too. >> Okay, but then also some racial sides are very obviously one political side. Depending on the region, at least. But do you think that like anything should change in the law to avoid landslide convictions based on racial bias? >> Okay, just for the sake of conversation without any preconceived thoughts cuz I don't want to be thinking about this ████ >> I'm down for it to be a replica a representation of that community. So, if that community is predominantly
1:41 like like 70% white and there's like 20% Asian and there's like 10% Hispanic, >> Uh-huh. >> then like I could understand if the jury suddenly was that representation proportionately. >> Okay. >> That that's You know what I mean? Like that's where you're from. That's your village. >> Yeah, I don't know, cuz wasn't there something in LA? I don't know where it was like something like because they had a all black jury, the the black guy on trial, the accused, or whatever, he was like he was like chill. He was like, "Okay, well, I'mma protect my my black community." >> what happened during O.J.'s trial. >> Yeah. >> Cuz they they actually have quotes of jurors saying >> Yeah. >> "This is revenge for Rodney King." >> Right. I think that's what I was Yeah, that's probably what it was. >> Is correct. >> So, they refused to to you know, convict or or find him not guilty.
2:31 >> what's funny though, is like when last time Tiff did jury duty, she was telling a story about how they tell you when they're selecting you for the jurors, um do not talk to the defendant at all. Like, "Sure. You know, when you guys are out there, don't let them talk to you." As soon as they go out, they break for lunch, this dude, the defendant, is trying to like like say what up to the jurors. He's like, "Hey, what's Hey, what's up, guys? How you doing?" Like trying to be all friendly with them. >> Yeah. >> And it's so That's I think that's one of the best dynamics ever. It should be allowed a little bit, I think. >> Oh, yeah. >> get You should get a >> Try to smooth them? >> Behind a glass window, you should be able to talk to the defendant a little bit. >> But But it's like a reality show, [laughter] so everybody's miked up and everything's documented. It's Everything's fair game. >> Pretty funny. That's pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They should They should have >> like you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to lobby each shot with each one. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Are they saying like if you're the same race
3:21 >> It's mandatory, actually. >> dude. >> There's just too much loyalty. >> Yeah, so >> Here's the hard part is that like So, the reason I'm bringing it up is because if if you're on social media you run into some of these charts, some of them will show that uh when there's a predominantly or like even half like the jury is black and the defendant is black, that he almost has like a way higher chance of uh being found not guilty. >> 50% of the jury is black, but then like 80% chance of not guilty. >> But But it's also like they they showed that like when it's white jurors, it's the same. Like they're not going to um like white jurors don't convict white crim- or they don't exonerate white criminals at a higher level at all. >> So, basically minorities have >> So, white people don't look out for each other jury-wise. >> have the same loyalty.
4:12 >> No. But, but they're saying that like these charts are showing that like oh, but when when the jurors are black, these black people get away with all this ████ But then, depending again, like this is highly algorithmically dependent, which is why I wanted to bring it up because there's also charts that show the exact opposite. So, it's hard to know what to believe. >> It's got to be regional cuz like >> Yeah. >> Put it to Let's say if you're from an all black neighborhood where the judge is black, the cop's black, then it's like none none of that matters anyway. >> want a all Asian jury cuz they're going to give me the fullest punishment. I want a all white jury cuz they're going to probably be like Oh, you know what? He probably had a hard life. >> Let's listen to this fullest punishment as long as they're not also committing the same crime. >> What if you flew in out-of-towners, dude? >> Here's a chart that I was telling you is the opposite of what I just said cuz right now the other It just depends on what your algo is and that's what you'll
5:02 get. But this one's showing that when it's mixed race, the conviction rate's about the same and it doesn't really change anything. >> Let's do mixed race then. >> I'm saying, dude. >> When it's all white, and this is Sarasota, Florida, I believe. And 700 felony trials they they uh examined >> Never mind. I don't want a all white jury. >> All white jury, the black dude is convicted 10% more. And like the whites 10% less. So, it's like a >> All right. They They got the They got the connection. >> So, I think it it might like you said, it might just be regional. >> You're from a northern state. >> Oh, wow. >> North Vietnam? >> No, like New York. >> No. >> I think we just know that >> I think regional sent- sentiment >> Florida especially. >> Exactly. >> Florida's an anomaly, I think. >> I I could kind of see the the South the more segregated states probably have this like vibe of like We don't want to run a black bike bar in
5:53 my neighborhood. >> Like poor whites, maybe poor whites get along with each other a little They got each other's backs a little bit more than like rich whites. >> May- maybe rural poor whites like Apple >> But don't you think that Asians would >> even Florida >> would give each other the hardest sentence? So you rather have a black group like or somebody outside anybody but Asians. It's opposite for us. >> Immigrant fathers are very conservative. >> If I'm a defendant, right? And then there's a jury that walks in and there's one Asian cat. I can't say I'm like, yes. I honestly I'm going to be like, I don't know. I really don't know. I'm going to get judged hard. >> Yeah, I really don't know. >> Be like, you're taking us down, dude. >> It's almost like I'd rather have some whites I could fool the whites, you know. >> [laughter] >> Well, that's I think that's that's a funny sentiment you say because I feel like that's very unique to at least I didn't realize how unique this was, but like when an Asian person ████ up, all
6:43 other Asians ostracize that person and >> Yeah. >> Dude, just ████ close your GoFundMe. No one's going to help you out. You ████ up. You made us look like ████ ████ dude. Even if I'm also criminal, you're going to get me arrested because you're ████ up your game. But there's very few like >> We're victim blamers. >> There's very few like, oh he he's Asian. He probably isn't guilty. Like he's probably fine. Like dude, we're the first ones to be like, get the ████ out of here, dude. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> He probably did it. >> Yeah. >> That's actually the lens we look at it. >> This is the chart that I think a lot of people are seeing. >> What did you do wrong? >> This one is again the exact opposite. So it just depends on what your argument is. Uh this is the bias for like if the white defendant's found guilty, that's when it's black people on the jury, 73% and if it's a yeah, black I think BME's black male entertainer. >> [laughter] >> Found him guilty.
7:34 Uh yeah, it's either or. So like this one is the stark opposite. So I think whatever again, there's no like full consensus over everything, but I just wanted to put that out as a warning that whatever you believe, your algo's going to show you charts that support that ████ So, either way, you know. >> Does that show that if if there's a black jury and it's a white defendant, the white ones have higher higher like rate of going to jail? >> Uh yep. >> How much evidence they leave behind? >> General though, isn't it pretty common sense that humans are tribal? Like all humans are going to stick subconsciously, they're going to be like loyal to their tribe. >> You would you would think, but I think America's different. Because America is such a diaspora that like if it was America versus Philippines, yeah, there
8:24 would be heavy tribalism and Filipinos in America would, you know, stand up for their home country in that way. But I think when we're all in this thing together, it's completely like different. >> I think it's different tribes. So, like you have the Democrat tribes or you have like these southern black guys that are like they have beef with, you know, the Appalachian white or whatever, right? But then it's like it's re- I think it's regional. Like there's probably way more regional beef than it's just a simple race thing. >> Cuz I know that when I when I was uh the foreperson in that murder trial, the um we had I think four black people in our jury pool, and there was like uh one of them or two of them were women, two of them were guys. And um only one of the black women was like, "I don't think they did it."
9:14 And everyone else, whether they were Mexican, white, black, was like, "These fools ████ shot a child. >> The evidence was so strong, right? >> so strong, but then one black woman had heard she was stan- sticking to it purely because she was like, "No, I just don't think he did it." Like >> But it But eventually >> What's that? >> Eventually she had to >> Well, yeah, because then I started ████ saying that we're just you want to come back here tomorrow? And that's all it took. >> Yeah. >> They were just like, "Okay." >> Yeah. [laughter] Which is how flimsy that is, right? >> Yeah, which is how like it can't really be trusted to be, you know, purely justice. >> Yeah. But that's why it's great you have seven other people around. >> That's where I'm like, "Okay, I don't think it's like I don't think it's a no-brainer that like, oh, black people see black people on the stand. They're going to be like, 'He didn't do it.'" By default, no. Because even in the courtroom that I was in, they were like, "Those fools ████ did it." You know what I mean? Like >> Cuz my other question, too, is like for a lot of these cases or for if you were to sit in a in a courtroom all day and
10:06 you were to observe all the cases, how much of those cases are just open and shut cases just because of how strong the evidence is? >> Yeah. >> Cuz most of these people aren't criminal masterminds. They're leaving evidence all over the >> Well, also the IQ pool in a jury is ████ wild. Like if you just have low IQ, you can't show enough evidence. They'll just be like, "I don't think it happened that way." >> But then [clears throat] you just hit them with the Ryan defense. You want to come back tomorrow? >> I'll see you tomorrow, then. >> Or we're talking about race in the jury pool, we're not necessarily talking about race in the crime or the problem why everybody's there. So, like then that I think that becomes very different, right? >> Oh, what the crime is? >> If it's like a hate crime, if it's like a racial like racially heated crime, then of course that jury's probably like you How are we How are you going to figure out who's going to do that? >> Well, yeah, I guess if you go crime by crime, it would be different. But then it depends if you have a preconceived
10:57 notion of like, "I don't care what happened. If that's the same race as me, he ain't going to jail." >> Asian dude that just didn't get justice but I do that just for >> Vicha. Like who's in that >> the judge. That wasn't the jury. >> Oh. >> Yeah, I think the judge threw that out. >> But it This kind of just reminds me of like some old southern ████ where like all the whites got each other's backs. Cuz they're like Ain't no way we're going to let the >> Skippy burning type ████ >> of stuff. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> The I I think the reality is so if you get like a Republican black guy, he's probably going to be way harder on like a hip-hop black guy. >> The Hodge twins. >> Yeah, or hip hop black guy. >> [laughter] >> If you have a blue haired white person, >> Yeah. >> they're probably going to be way harder on a straight white male. >> Oh, for sure. >> Not a Mexican >> Nobody's more divisive than whites right now. They ████ hate each other.
11:47 >> I'm saying, so it's not race. >> we monetize this? >> It's not race, it's tribe. >> Tribe Tribe is huge also because like think of it back then too. In your tribe or in your village or like your click, even if your somebody really did do the wrong thing. Like you know they did wrong, you're still going to be like, you want to throw down for this? You know, like you'll still back them up. So as long as like there's that feeling of tribalism whether it be you came from the same neighborhood or or the same block, you know, or there's an actual connection or something that then there might be a bias. >> I mean for sure we do see a bias and I think like now more than ever it's very visible because we have GoFundMe. So if someone can commit any crime and if they put their GoFundMe up, that's your litmus test on who thinks you're not guilty. >> Yep. >> Based on purely just they have something in common with you.
12:37 >> And we know all the stereotypes. If you're white and you shoot a black person, they're going to get a GoFundMe and all these southern southern conservatives [laughter] are going to back you up. >> Right, right, right. >> If you're I don't know, like black and you rob a liquor store then you you beat up Asians, you're still going to get crowdfunded by other people. You know what I mean? Like >> Yeah, but then if you're Asian and you do anything, there's no one giving you money. >> [laughter] >> Nobody's even paying your bail. >> Asians can't can't crowdfund. They'll be like, why you need money? >> They're too cheap. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]
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