0:00 Welcome to part four of Charles from North Korea. We are just at the point where he's working at a coal mine that is so insanely dangerous that it is worth taking the risk of trying to escape North Korea a second time. >> So by this time uh what was the city you're >> Chun? Is that that's more inland again, right? >> That's like in the middle of >> So now you got to like figure out a way to get all the way back >> north. Yeah. all the way north to uh Han which is >> How far away is Sun Chun from Pyongyang? >> Oh um two train station stops. So >> Pyong Pyongyang. >> Oh okay. >> So two train stops are very close. >> So that's pretty close to South Korea actually. >> Oh yeah actually. Yeah, it's it's well I mean in a map, right? Like and then like
0:52 Sadi is really close to the border uh the DMZ or Kasong is like the city right in front of it. Yeah. We were like I was in like the middle area. Yeah. Middle of North Korea. >> I've been to Pyongyang on a little tourist trip and I took a picture. >> You did? >> Yeah. >> You went to North Korea? >> No, just and I bought like a little North Korean liquor thing >> cuz you know you could kind of like tour the DMZ. >> Oh, I see. Oh, I see. In South Korea. >> Yeah. I I was on it on South Korean terms. >> How how did it feel? Well, are are you Korean? >> No. No. I'm Chinese, but it does look it's it's hard. So, you don't know what what your eyes are seeing, right? Like I see it and it looks pleasant. Definitely looks >> older like you coming from South Korea lights over. You see over there looks very humble. Looks more like farmland. But then I also go, if they know we're
1:43 supposed to see this and then knowing how North Korea operates, they're only going to show us what they want to show us, >> right? Like the good side of it. >> Yeah. So I'm like, so I I'm just looking at at everything with a grain of salt. >> Yeah. >> And then we we went through some tunnels. I don't know if there are mining tunnels or war tunnels or whatever. >> It's probably like a North Korean regime duck North Korean Yeah. duck through like to invade South Korea. >> Yeah. And then and then I have like a little thing you could buy from the souvenir shop to support the local North Korean or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for thanks for doing that. >> local support your local support Korean. [laughter] >> Hey, it's your uh support your local North Korean day. >> Going for a good cause. [laughter] That's crazy. Where you were is just two stops away from Pyongyang. >> When was that? >> Uh maybe like 12 years ago maybe. >> Okay. Well, I've been in America for
2:33 like 14 years. I was trying to see if I was like, "Oh, was I still in North Korea, you know?" >> Oh, yeah. >> Could have pointed him out running. [laughter] >> So, look at that guy. >> Get him. >> He likes Mala tongue. Get [laughter] back from >> he watches bad boy [laughter] snitching on me. Snitching. >> Um, you know, like it's kind of really sad like 30 miles apart your life could be like dramatically different, you know, from where you're born. It's It's really sad. And uh not the peninsula like the Korean peninsula is still smaller than half of the size of California. >> Yeah, >> it's very small. So when you want to when you travel like from like I would guess like from all the way from one end of Korea to other end of Korea, you
3:24 could probably drive within eight hours. >> Wow. >> You know, it's that small. It's like half of California, right? is smaller than half of California. It took me 2 days to get from Shunan. >> Yeah. >> To Han, which is the border town. >> Were you on a railroad or >> I was on a railroad, right? Again, like >> like sneaking around. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, it's >> what? >> Like uh I was really lucky in a way that I found that train that was going from border town. Well, again, I escaped coal mine uh on the uh uh May of 2011 and I was spending three months as a homeless kid. uh stealing um and bas Yeah, I survived basically stealing but I've always kept my you know I clean. >> Did you have to tell anybody that tell your half brother like hey I'm going to leave tomorrow or do you just disappear or >> Yeah. No, I was disowned by my half
4:15 brother because I escaped coal mine and I was scared you know like I I was scared. So >> So you have to make a decision for yourself. It's not something you tell anybody. You're like this is just on me now. I mean, you can't even tell people that you're escaping North Korea cuz they'll snitch on you. >> Yeah. Cuz they're going to snitch on me. >> Will your family get in more trouble if you escape? >> Yeah. I mean, depending on who you are, like elites, right? I mean, like North Korean people escape North Korea for multiple different reasons, not just the hunger. Yeah. Right. They want better future for their kids. Freedom like of speech, like a freedom of, you know, religion, whatever. Um, and then for my case, it's like a hunger case. But for the people who are escaping like not because of their hunger, they're usually elites or welloff in Pyongyang or like other places. >> So So the setting the example for those
5:05 people is a lot higher. >> Exactly. Yeah. So that's when people have the misconception of all North Korean uh defectors family would get killed. No, no, no. It's those elites who are harshly punished because North Korean regime is like actually setting an example of >> they don't really care if like [snorts] some you know orphan kid escapes not >> so you're like the lowest level of risk to let go >> orphan kid you know like struggling to survive in North Korea now coming to America and just like having like this being on this kind of podcast >> it's like a direct challenge you know to the regime >> yeah get on a podcast a nonprofit that [laughter] Dude, they messed up, dude. >> But um going back to like how I actually came to the border town, um I wasn't I snuck onto the train and again like you have to have traveling documents, you
5:56 have to have a money, you have to have tickets, right? Because like again, this is going to the border town. Security is tight, right? So it's like you can't just like get on. But North Korea, there's a lot of power outages. So the the train actually on the on the m uh August of 2011 a humid very humid North Korean train doesn't it's like a 60s train it's like there's no air conditioning you know there is no air conditioning in the in the train stopped people are exiting out of cars so hot uh and then there being groups of different people um I joined the group I was chatting you know it's like I >> Oh you blended in >> exactly when the power came back on people were just like rushing into the train cuz it again it's like middle of nowhere. So in the train stations there's like security guards everywhere in the train station, right? >> But trains just stop in the middle of
6:47 nowhere and it's like middle of railroad. There's nobody around like I mean no securityities, right? Uh but when whenever the power came back in they were like oh people getting on let me see a ticket and I lied that my mother had them and that she was already on the train and I told him like hey I'm going to bring her back you know um when I find her and he's like uh okay whatever. Oh, okay. Yeah. >> So, that's how I got on the track. >> Smart, dude. >> And the entire time I was playing hide and seek with the police officers, >> right? Cuz uh again, it's very very um a tight security uh people like a it wasn't um it wasn't a police officer, it was a military police officer uh with gun and checking uh documents uh checking traveling documents uh tickets. So, I have like a PTSD now. Like whenever I have I get on a train and then like uh can I see your ticket
7:38 please? I like [panting] >> oh my mother's over there. [laughter] >> So it's like oh wait I'm I'm not there. Oh, oh yeah yeah I have a ticket. I get like >> oh yeah the question. >> Yeah but uh but yeah so I play hide and seek with the police officers. Uh sometimes I would have to uh hide in the the bathroom uh train uh bathroom >> um or like uh climb out of the bathroom window or just hang on. to the train while the train is moving cuz like sometimes like the police officers would open the bathroom door to make sure you check again. It's like a bathroom like you would think about like you know uh toilets you know flushing. No, no, no. It's like you can literally see like a ground >> the ground while it's moving. Yeah. >> So it's just the hole in the train. >> Yeah, the hole in the train. >> What [laughter] the heck? >> It's Yeah. So it's like you you pee is like so it's on the trail railroads like
8:28 sometimes like yeah everywhere you know and so it smells really bad too you know so like those kind of train that I'm talking about I'm not talking about like a fancy trains um and then two days later I I finally came to the border town um and then I walked into the river that divides North Korea and China uh again like first time like I had my dad right on the other side uh but this time like it's on my own Like if I get captured now, like I'm going to die, right? Because like, well, A, they could shoot me. Uh B, uh, if I were to go to China, I I I don't know anybody. If I were to get captured, sent back, it's I'm I'm almost like, you know, I'm almost an adult now, and this is my second time escaping North Korea, so there might not be mercy. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um but still that was far worth
9:20 you know it's like I could not forget about you know the malatang. [laughter] >> Yeah >> the South Korean drama. Yeah I know I know what's on the other side. >> Bad boys 2. >> Bad boys 2. You know >> the girl the girls generation. You know the girls generation. >> No for real though. 2008 that's when I first introduced like girls generation. >> Imagine getting like 10 girls in like a group. You're just like what the >> Yeah. And and then like seeing like girls generation versus like North Korean propaganda, you know, ladies, I was like, "Wow, it's a difference. It's a world of difference." >> Propaganda ladies. [laughter] >> There's some lookers. All right. I kind of want to see these North Korean propaganda ladies. >> Oh, I'll show you. I'll show you. Um and then, um yeah, so I walked into the river at 3 p.m. Uh because there's a curfew. You can actually go to the river
10:12 during the sunrise and sunset in that period because North Korea doesn't have a running water. It's not a common thing, right? No hot and cold. No, no, no. Uh running water. There's no running water. So, people needs to come to the river and they have to get that water and then bring it back home, walk, >> you know, with the water. Yeah. >> Like walk like 30 minutes, an hour or even you have a uh like carrier, right? And then you have to like walk all the way. There's a lot of people doing that. And people drink that uh Yellow River water as well. Um first time escaping North Korea, I realized like when you like go all the way up to the river like where these people are like drinking and doing the laundry like Chinese people, they just like taking a you know bath or peeing and pooping and whatever. Dirty.
11:03 North Korean people really doesn't know that. Um it felt bad. Like I was like, "Wow." I I I drank that water. >> Yeah. >> So, I went to the river at 3:00 p.m. and then I hid in the tall grass as soon as I So, I I had a bucket. I pretended that I was getting a water. Then, I walked down and then as soon as I walked down and I was kind of looking around to make sure no guards are looking and when he when the guard wasn't looking, I threw the bucket away and I duck uh under the tall grass. And I stayed like that for many hours >> waiting for the waiting for the sun to set >> sun to set and get really really dark because again when it's dark nobody's allowed there and then like a military is like you know with guns like they're walking around make sure nobody's you know walking and then um when it was really really quiet uh and nobody's um
11:56 uh nobody was around I quietly step into the water and I I started swimming Um, but in the beginning of the beginning part of the river, you know, I was kind of like walking cuz like uh it was not the current was really fast. So it was more of like a walk than swim. >> Yeah. Cuz if you swim, it's going to sweep you away. >> If I were to like try to like lift my leg up cuz I have to like really do this. And the water was like about chest tight. Uh, so I was just like, "Oh." Um, and then I slipped on a rock and I I let out a a gasp and then I was like I was doing this, right? And then the guard found me. Uh, and he had a a light on my back and he was like, you know, it's just like he he's like he's like yelling at me like, "If you don't come back, I'm going to shoot." Oh
12:46 my god. >> Um, but I mean at that point like I realized, you know, it's like I'm here. Like I'm literally committing another treason here. >> Um if I were to go back Yeah. If I were to go back, I'm going to be sent to uh uh >> How far away do you think that guy is with the light? >> The shore, right? The the everything is raised up. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I think he was coming down to me and he was screaming at me, right? So it's kind of like he's kind of like coming down with the light and then like he's screaming at me. Um I don't know how far how far he was but the generally the security guard post is every 100 meters. Uh and those meters like two people are supposed to keep a watch >> two two guards uh and every 100 meters and um it's high up. Yeah. As I was like
13:40 struggling he found me and then he was screaming at me. He said he's going to shoot me if I didn't come back. But, you know, um I duck under the water. The current carried me away uh from the from the guard. Uh and that's how I was how I was uh able to escape. >> You just held your breath and it was just I'm just going to keep holding my breath until I can't >> until I can hold my breath any longer. And then, you know, at that point, I was like, you know, far away from the guard. >> Is it true that they can't shoot you if you get to the other side? >> They don't care. >> They don't care. They'll shoot you no matter what. >> Well, technically, right? Technically by international law the bullet should not reach other part of the country. >> Yeah. >> That is an act of war. >> Right. >> Right. So they can't shoot while the north uh while even in the m uh water
14:30 too cuz that's nobody's land. That's like international river. They're not supposed they should not they're not supposed but now North Korean soldiers they would carry the gun go into the water. >> Go to the China side. bring the North Korean back. >> And it's so but it's technically illegal. >> Yeah, it's illegal. Yeah. So, and and back then to like back then they did not do that, >> but now they do. And now if you were to shoot and kill a North Korean defector, you would be uh moving up in the ranks. Yeah. So, that's that's what I was talking about. Yeah. So, Kim Jong-un gave an order. >> So, they try even harder now to get them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and then uh Yeah. And then I 5 minutes later I was struggling and then I came to China side. Um and then I walked in China for 3 days. >> 3 days walking in China. >> Yeah. Without any proper meal. Um I was hungry. I was dehydrated. I was
15:21 exhausted. >> Is it just an empty road the whole way? >> No, it's like I I I was following like a highway almost. It's not a highway, but it's like a in the forest, you know, there's like a road. I was following the roads and I >> Is it because you're just trying to get as much distance behind you and North Korea as possible? >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to leave that city, the Chinese city as soon as I can. >> Where all the white people that will report you will be. >> All the cars. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> All the snitch asses in there. >> All the cars there. >> I don't want to, you know, I'm I'm not looking, you know, to get captured and sent back to North Korea. You know what I mean? So I was walking uh during the I was sleep I was trying to sleep during the daytime and I try I was trying to walk at night because during the daytime cars coming they can I I cannot see the cars are coming from the back right cuz it's like um
16:11 >> bright but at night I could actually come I could actually see the cars coming because of the headlights. Um and eventually my shoe fell apart. North Korean quality shoe you know uh my pickup blisters. >> Uh my blister popped and it started bleeding. So I could not walk anymore. So I collapsed and I start uh regretting like why did I even leave North Korea you know like if I were to stay in coal mine I would have you know at least foot in my stomach. Um and uh you know I would have roof over my head. But now I because I left North Korea I'm just going to die like this. like die uh like forgotten death, you know, it's like nobody's going to find me. Nobody's going to know that I'm, you know, I'm dead. Um and I was crying. Um and then eventually, um >> when you cry, do you like have to like drink your tears? Yeah. Save it.
17:02 >> Yeah. >> Savor it. It's like a salty. No, it it I was just like laying down and I was just like, you know, and I was I was like >> Yeah. Uh I was like blaming my mom >> um for I was like I was like why did you die first you know like why did you bring me to this world like if you can't really take care of me um and I I you know like all sorts of like different kind of like you know there's like a five stages of like >> of grief grief right acceptance denial all that all of that >> acceptance yeah >> yeah it's like >> so you're not even trying to walk anymore you're just laying there >> I was like Yeah. Like, yeah, I'm done. Like, I I'm going to die. And I gave up. Um, and then a Chinese guy was driving motorcycle. >> He passes me by cuz like again, like it
17:53 was during the daytime, right? Cuz I was just lying there on the ground. And [snorts] like at this point, like I did not care who sees me, >> right? Cuz like I'm going to die anyway. Like who cares? this Chinese guy driving motorcycle. He stops, comes back, and then he looks at me and he's like blown away, right? This child like, you know, obviously a North Korean kid, you know, with like part of his shoes gone and North Korean dress, a North Korean, you know, like outfit and and then he's like like what are you doing here? >> Did he speak Korean a little? >> No, no, no. He's he spoke Chinese like >> but he but [snorts] you could but he was speaking with like his hands and stuff. No, he he asked me. >> Oh, okay. Okay. >> I I I speak broken Chinese. Okay. >> Did you grow up speaking Chinese? >> No, no, no, no, no. It's only when I went to China, I learned survival
18:43 Chinese >> in the nine months you were there. >> Yeah. >> Oh, there is survival levels and stuff and dude. >> Yeah, that's pretty good. Holy >> Um Wow. >> Yeah. And then that guy was asking me like nar. So I was like, you know, the the northern accent of like nar >> Australian. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Chinese Aussie, dude. >> Chinese Aussie. [laughter] >> What are the chances? >> Um, yeah. He he So I spoke in Chinese, so I I told him like, "Oh, baba." like I'm looking for my father and then he was kind of like thinking for a while >> like Yeah. Right.
19:34 >> Yeah. And then and then and then actually he actually took me to his house. >> To his house? >> Yeah. To his house. Uh so we so he he he was thinking for a while and then he uh put me on his motorcycle and then he we rode for many hours afterwards. It was raining too and it was a cold but he gave me food, water and then he took me to his house uh and then he fed me. He gave me clothing. He gave me money and then uh medication for my feet. Next morning, he connected me to a South Korean missionary. >> Wow, >> dude. This is the greatest guy on the That guy's an angel. >> Yeah, he was hero. He was my hero. Yeah. If it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't be >> Could he get in a lot of trouble for doing it? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. >> That was probably the thinking for a long [laughter] time. >> Damn. What the >> No. No. >> I'm afraid of them. Australians.
20:25 >> Yeah. What would Steve Owen do? [laughter] >> He picked his light up. >> Get on the bike. >> Um and I the I that's the reason why uh I couldn't like he didn't give me his phone number, you know. It's >> Oh, to protect himself from >> Yeah. So I I regret that so much like I should have like memorized the phone number so that I could reach out to him when you know all this thing is done. But but yeah, eventually and then yeah, I came to I came to China and then I the Chinese uh the the South Korean missionary eventually helped me find my way to my dad's house and then my dad found a broker that smugg smuggles North Korean refugees out from China to Southeast Asia, right? And then where they can now apply for political asylum to United Nation or to South Korea and that's how I Yeah. So that's how I came to, you know, from China to Laos. Laos
21:17 is Thailand. And then in Thailand, um, I applied for a political asylum to United Nation. >> You know, now I think about it, you may not have been the first North Korean guy he found. >> Oh, that guy. >> Yeah. Cuz if he knew a missionary, maybe helped others, >> you know, like >> he might have helped others, too. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. He might have actually >> he might have had like a network of like, yo, let me just send you to Here we go again. >> [laughter] >> I mean, you know, it's so interesting, too. Like, what are the chances, you know, >> like what are the chances that I met him and what are the chances that he knew that guy? So, yeah, like that's my thinking, too. >> Dude, your entire life is what are the chances? [laughter] >> Well, that's your movie. That's your movie title. >> Thank you. [laughter] All right, we're going to cut there. Uh, please stay tuned for the next part. We're going to figure out what happened after uh Charles goes on his Asia
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